shock + horror ;(
in trying to become a member/voice in a local Malaysian forum, which is btw branded as dedicated to educating us and showcasing our Malaysian fauna, this author finds that the segments under the Malaysian Fauna (MF) sub-forum of 'Lizards' are still touting early post-dated green iguana (ig) literature from the 90's where animal protein was once fed(!)
a BIG NO-NO-NO NOW!!!
let's face it, anybody that cares about the green ig he is nurturing should never feed it animal protein. period. as animal protein is NOW significantly linked to causing kidney problems, renal failure, gout and interstital nephritis amongst other things in the green ig (since the early 90's in fact is when the NOW chapter started..ho hum).
side symptoms include loss of hind leg movement, swelling in the hind legs... and it continues depressingly on.
please MF members; get it right! do not use the excuse that some of you have been doing this (feeding of animal protein) for years now, and want to just keep doing it until you see the symptoms yourself, or ask how long before your ig actually becomes sick, or how much is too much, or whether igs in SEA have got sick before - all the literature being from other parts of the world so not applicable lah.
a green iguana in captivity is a green iguana in captivity; be it in Malaysia or Kansas city, what you need to feed them right, is what you need to feed them.
it is cruel and inhumane to keep on pushing animal protein, knowing eventually your ig will get sick. and your green iguana is not an 'experiment'. it is a living, breathing exotic that feels pain, and you undervalue your green friend by just not getting it - animal protein is officially out since about 1.5 decades ago.
2 quick references:
http://www.anapsid.org/adambritton.html
http://www.anapsid.org/iguana/hayes.html
so what is fact? and what is fiction? myths debunked here:
http://www.anapsid.org/factfict.html
so listen, the other excuse a moderator put forward in the same MF Lizard sub-forum was: "the food recommended is not easily available in Malaysia". another poor lazy excuse as many of the types of food recommended for the green ig can be found in our local markets and in the Cold Storages of the Malaysian world.
read this list http://www.anapsid.org/resources/vegetablenames.html
and note 2 things: NEVER feed your green ig what is marked with the red asterisk AND you can write directly to Melissa Kaplan herself if you have difficulty finding the 'right' name in our local Malaysian context. but malu lah kita.. just invest in a good cook book guide that shares the names in local languages.. or go to your local library and dig out the encyclopedia. you will find enough plant protein that you can nurture you ig with that you don't have to do the no-no animal protein bit.
but now i am waiting for the next obvious excuse (please read this in a whiny voice as that's how i hear it in my head): "Cold Storage?? some of the veggies and fruit suggested are imported... and will be expensive lah, i can't afford that!!!".
right, then don't co-habit with a green iguana.
they are exotic. they have special needs. duh!
they are an investment (both on-going financially; time wise; affection and dedication wise) and with just the proper balance of care and socialization, they will bring to you hours or maybe just moments of joy, as they eventually may come to you to solicit a pick-up/cuddle, or just snort gently in your ear as you play 'happy slave walking you around your apartment' once again.
"you mean? that's about all i get??". hmm, maybe you should get a dog 'bro'...
okay; now for THE push back on accepting what the iguana experts are saying, quoted from a MF forum moderator (Emystiong), him not wanting to accept that animal protein is factually bad for the green igs that he is keeping; this really cracked me up(!):
"As most of those information provided by those " experts" or seniors in the Iguana hobby for many many years in the hobby are all oversea based non or very few are even located nearby".
yes - first learn to write in English, then you may understand the foreign experts and advice better? oops, sorry, that was too meow kan?; and yes - they are still the experts foreign or otherwise as they have had the documented head-start to us here in Malaysia by the decades wei. live with it. accept it.
we are just starting down this exotic pet path, and even then we are already exhibiting a deliberate misunderstanding of what an exotic should be fed. gearing it to our own warped reasoning.
green igs: repeat after me... they ARE NOT merely things you buy so you can look macho (i think that's what you get your snakes for kan? to watch them eat the live feed). they ARE NOT merely to be kept to breed to start a business (is that the root of your stubbornness about the animal protein? spurts growth, makes them breed faster? who cares if they drop dead at 3 or 4 or 5 from kidney failure?). they ARE NOT just lizards so caaaan lah go against what nature built them to digest.
deep breath for the author is recommended now: inhale/exhale.
okay, now, let's talk about the poor 'smash the bunny' thread (started: Apr 18 2007, 10:31 PM) that i only discovered the day i resigned from the MF forum: May 26th - after a 5 day membership btw... too much unintellectual, unfounded testosterone based postings for me.
anyway this bunny thread went on with moderators fully participating... under the MF Leisure: Sadness Forum thread; titled: 'Which is the better way?'
allow me to quote; ahem:
does this ever happen on you ?
your pet lying in the cage getting weaker and weaker...which means by he is suffering to dead...
option 1 : u smash him to relief his suffer..let him die on the spot....
option 2 : let him die naturally...which means by he had to suffer till death arrive...
option 3 : pet him till he pass away...(almost same like option 2)
both of my baby rabbit pass away...not even 2 week in the house...damn...the first 1 I pet him till he return to god...the 2nd 1...I back home n found out that he cirit birit...then I claen him and went to sleep..after that...he return to god too...I thought of smash him to the wall and shorten his suffer of getting weaker n weaker..but I can't do it..damn...if u guys had expirience this event ...kindly gives your comment of any better idea bout this ?
(cirit birit = diarrhoea.)
and boy did his fellow MF moderators give their comments or better ideas or what?
everything from how do you 'smash a large dog then' to after you smash it (the bunny), 'will you consider letting us feed it to our snakes'. recycle Joe is highly recommended.
only 1 mod tried to suggest humanely a vet whilst bunny is suffering? and then a proper burial later as it was a "pet".
let's say this again here on my own Blog where there is no MF-biased-towards-themselves censorship: take responsibility! you post/you discuss, you brand, you influence bro, period!
and this is not what i want Malaysia known to be able to "boleh". not what i want (being Malaysian myself btw) to be our international 'brand' on how Malaysians really feel about their pets/animals in general.
and my final shock and horror... stumbled upon this posting in the MF Lizard sub-forum, this thread titled 'Blue Rock Iguana (Cyclura nubila lewisi)' - started: Feb 3 2007, 01:57 PM.
quotes and again note - full participation by moderators, that do not guide towards suggesting the inappropriateness of this suggestion (read this as in AN ANIMAL THAT IS DEEMED EXTINCT) but who instead lead this thread on like it's even okay to have this convo:
piesceslim (who starts the thread): Is it possible to buy Blue Rock Iguana /Grand Cayman Blue iguana (Cyclura nubila lewisi) in our country? Or anyone got lubang for it?
(Lubang = Malaysian slang for 'hole; way in')
daniel: even if u could get one into the country it would be expensive
uncle herp: Very, very expensive !!!! :)
piesceslim: How's expensive? Just curious to know. Are they breed in any farm of South East Asia?
Emystiong: (posted a picture of 2 bobbleheads)
Here's mine.
Something that rare I would say may never be offered legally to the average Joe bloke.
If not legal may be around RM10,000 mark or more just my guess anyway.
ba5tard: lolz... nice blue rock iguana (with reference to the bobbleheads)
so, in essence, a forum that advertises itself under it's Teh Tarik segment: "Members discussion on anything and everything-under authorization and discretion of Malaysia Fauna's Management"...
is a fully authorized management team that does not stand up for the rights of simple bunnies and the endangered Blue Ig - the latter btw where people are banding together g l o b a l l y to protect and recover them; with the whole world watching the official efforts at:
http://www.blueiguana.ky/
we in Malaysia boleh... buat lubang that is ;(
p.s. btw MF mods get the Latin and your facts right:
The Blue Iguana evolved more recently from ancestors of its nearest relative, the Cuban Iguana (Cyclura nubila). Cuban Iguana ancestors also made the crossing to Little Cayman and Cayman Brac, where they evolved into a unique subspecies, Cyclura nubila caymanensis, and to the southern Bahamas where they evolved into a new species, Cyclura cychlura.
The Blue Iguana was long thought to be another subspecies of the Cuban Iguana, and but recent genetic evidence has led to a revision, and the Blue Iguana is now considered a unique species, Cyclura lewisi. If Cyclura lewisi and Cyclura nubila caymanensis are artificially brought into contact, they can still breed and produce fertile offspring. Naturally, they have always been separated by at least 67 miles of open ocean.
so we live to die another day...
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14 comments:
i wont touch on green igs coz i dont live with one. i'll just stick to my furry friends, k. hehe. but im with u 110%. they are EXOTIC. thus they cant be treated as you do your domesticated cats and dogs.
and when a species is classified as extinct, one should lend a helping hand in saving them. not lend a helping hand in totally wiping them off from the planet, yeah?
but the smashing bunny bit? HELLO??? how sick can these people get? not to mention UNEDUCATED. it's absurd. I'm so appalled by it girlfriend!! these ppl should come back as a rabbit in their next life. see how they like it. fucktards!
p/s welcome to the world of blogging {hugs}
thanks LWB :) for visiting and for leaving the 1st official comment ever, on my blog.
kinda like a full circle really, considering how we 'made' the Iggy decision together.
yes, the Malaysian Fauna forum continues to disgust, and they are aiming to getting registered soon. scary to think a forum that could potentially put Malaysia on the 'map' with animal lovers and experts globally, is going to showcase instead blatant disrespect to the lizard exotics (green + blue) and animal cruelty.
hugs right back at ya.
hey babe! good on you! perhaps you can create the link to MF...or you had already? You should blab this blog to your igs contacts so that the can all go to MF and bash their brains out, instead of the bunny!!
May be that can be your next blog...rally folks to knock sense into MF!!
Another place to visit to occupy me...woo hoo!
thanks mi amiga :) i had fwd this link on to all the ig experts i know, and it is really very cool to get their feedback this am through PMs and learn how i seem to be 'replicating' how some 'started' decades ago (with passion and shock/horror at the ignorance=need to take a stand + educate).
i want to rally the Malaysian animal societies and animal loving Malaysians to take a stand about the moderators + their moderation rules on the MF.
it would be the ultimate disgrace, if the MF gets their registration and represents MALAYSIA + MALAYSIANS as someone didn't stop to check EVERY nuance; i know it's the internet but very little thing adds (or depletes) our Malaysian 'face'.
Put 'face' aside, what is worse is the projected influence the mods have on flippantly encouraging bad care practices for the green ig, animal cruelty in the bunny thread, and a suggestion of helping the Blue Ig even more 'lupus'.
Come visit soon (or better still, don't leave...hehe).
Hi Sista!!! Now welcome to the blogging world as well. To promote your blog to the malaysian bloggers, you can sign up with Petalingstreet.org (see the difference!!), and then post every post that you write. the forum is run by a very professional blogger himself, so see you blog turn up there.
In addition, check on bloglines.com. May be there are more blogs that describe the life of Iguanas and you can link up with them
How is that?
Just linked to you and welcomed you :)
thanks Andreas :) for visiting, linking and sharing how i can get even more connected.
do talk to your friends about how inadvertently some of us 'promote' cruelty to animals without realizing.
just yesterday in The NSTP there was a letter to the editor on stray cats, and how the higher fatality rates are often caused by owners that dump them because they get pregnant, and they do not want the hassle to nurture kittens too;(
Get your cats sprayed!
I've long said, "If you can't afford the vet, you can't afford the pet." It has become equally obvious that as exotics like green iguanas end up in countries far from the New World where they evolved, their new keepers cannot so easily find the foods and equipment necessary to keep them properly.
There are two ways to deal with that problem. MF exemplifies one way: take the lazy way out, don't bother to do the research necessary to find locally available plants to construct a healthy diet, and shrug off providing the necessary lighting and heating equipment if it can't be found at the local pet stores.
Your way exemplifies the far more difficult path: doing the research, finding local equivalents, and reaching out to educate others about proper care and why NOT to get certain exotics if they aren't as committed as you are to providing the necessary care.
Good luck, and congrats on a good start!
thanks Melissa :) for visiting; for leaving this landmark comment (wow!!!); for revolutionizing my life even from such a great distance; for educating us all; and most importantly for showing us how special our green friends really are!
and a heartfelt personal thanks especially for showing me the way...
p.s. IggySingh sends verrry happy head bobs to you + Mike.
hey andreas
What's your blog yar? nice to be connected :-)
NY
I am from the US, where feral iguana are not indigenous in any state. However, certain states such as southern Florida, one can find iguana flourishing in the wild. Severel irresponsible exotic pet owners have released to the wild iguana they did not want. The cute little babies became a lot more than they bargained for. They had not researched before they bought them or won them as a prize at a carnival. Now these areas have iguana eradication plans:
http://www.reptileforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-24626.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,191792,00.html
Here is a site dedicated to methods of trapping iguana:
http://iguanatrappers.com/
Here is an activist site in response:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/541199968
This area where iguanas can thrive in the USA when released to the wild is very, very small. Yet baby iguana are given as carnival prizes across the northern states, as well as sold in pet stores, to people who know nothing about them.
If iguana were more expensive, in shorter supply relative to demand, buyers would be less impulsive about buying them, and certainly they would not be given away as carnival prizes (which should be legally banned, and is in several states). Motivation levels for ownership would have to be more substantial. Only then will enhanced educational efforts about appropriate care be effective targetting both owners and dealers.
This is not Malaysia, or southern Florida, where climate is more tropical and indigenous to the iguana. These are cold climates and often dry regions. They require elaborate set-ups to maintain the health of iguana that most have no idea about and would not spend the money to create, unless their motivational level was significantly higher as evidenced by paying higher prices for iguana in the first place.
The economic facts are that baby iguana are often purchased by importers for as little as $0.29 (US dollars) in their native countries. They are sold to wholesale distributers here for $1.75-$2.75 and resold to pet stores or carnivals for $2.75-$4.00. Stores sell iguana for $10-$30. Because they are so cheap they are shipped here in bulk in cloth bags, often in their own excrement. Many die or become horribly diseased along the way.
If they survive, they go to carnivals or pet stores, neither of which cares for them properly. Pet stores here sell products for iguana habitats that are actually harmful to iguana, and teach buyers to use these habitats so they can make additional profits. These products include harmful subtrates, expensive lamps which do not provide appropriate UVB light, and food pellets that can dehydrate iguana and contain animal protein. I have seen, and heard from several others, dead iguana in store display cases, alongside horribly sick iguana. When pet shop owners are told what needs to be done they make excuses. Why? Because iguana are so cheap to replace it does not make economic sense to pay for appropriate care.
So, what happens to the pet iguana when the owner discovers this is a wild animal, gets very big, and can be expensive to care for? In the vast majority of America, to release such a creature to the wild means eventual death. The climate, vegitation, and lack of jungle canopy doesn't support their survival. Our iguana rescue facilities are overrun and turning away iguana.
Adoption becomes our best solution, but that process is much slower than the tsunami of imports coming in on a continuous basis. IggySingh is correct. Imports must be slowed down or stopped. Efforts both in the countries importing and exporting iguana need to take place. It is not likely that exporting countries will control a trade that brings in US dollars. The US is not likely to place import restrictions upon something that doesn't cost US jobs. So once again the problem is aggravated by the economics of the situation. Only through strong and persistant activism can we hope for this situation to change.
thank you Dan... for visiting; for sharing; for your very valid comments; and for your great support(!).
it is yet to hit many Malaysians, how the pet trade holistically will eventually override the sentiments and the well-being of the exotics that we should be respecting as exotics, and not just as another thing to add to A collection.
it is already happening in the basic should-know categories of food, care and housing for the green iguanas we bring home. not enough newbies take the time to do the research before bringing baby home. a lizard is a lizard is a lizard to many i have met on the MF. animal protein is "yar - a no-no to the foreign experts, but we haven't seen the effects so we're going to keep feeding them what we want". this is really the crappy attitude that made me start this Blog in the first place.
in the malls, many parents buy them for their kiddies "as the little cute green hatchling, can't really grow to be 6 feet can it? and how much time does a lizard need? just stick it in a cage lah and kiddies can play with it if they want, and the pet shop says i only need to feed these pellets".
sigh.
please do keep coming back Dan :) i can learn from you; we all can. cheers!
i nak simpan tapi risau pasal maintanance la..hmmm
hi :) thanks for visiting and for leaving your comment.
ribuan terima kasih especially for thinking about the long term maintenance + care BEFORE taking this plunge.
green igs have been know to live in captivity until they hit 20 years old (with the proper plant protein diets, and hydration routines) and so be prepared for the long haul; and from experience you will have to be prepared to dedicate at least 2-3 hours daily if you are serious about socializing your ig, and keeping it healthy and stress free. this includes macam macam lah; like: the maintenance time of cleaning out the cage and wiping down the plants; cleaning + boiling the food + water bowls (so you don't catch the dreaded Salmonella); your hydration routine - syringe feeding water, and/or shower/bath times; cutting up all the veggies and fruit daily; play and free-roaming/socialization time.
and that's just the basics kalau you nak jadi keeper tulen and have a healthy, somewhat adjusted green ig that you keep as a pet, that you can sometimes (kalau angin dia ok) hang out with.
i have been living with IggySingh for 4+ years now, and don't get me wrong. i have no regrets (although my family does!) Iggy is now 4.5 feet and is very intimidating to adults and friends that do not know her, just by her walking over to them, they panic and she poor thing thinks they are trying to attack her, and it gets messy, and i have a confused stressed-out ig. 'si manja i' potentially can hurt children unintentionally as she has claws that cannot retract (unlike a cat) so even when she walks over them as they sit on the sofa, she leaves long superficial scratches or deep short ones that bleed.
and her tail is razor sharp, btw. so even if she is just sitting there all loving and calm and nak manja, and someone was to rub her the wrong way (like from tail to head - a big NO-NO) that person has a heavily serrated hand that is gushing blood (no joke).
i had to start wearing a watch, and keep my long-sleeved jackets on, as my clients would be overly focused on the cuts on my wrist and arms, and not on my presentations.
and my advice looking back is really please take all the time in the world before saying yes. think through your routine, and current job situation and your social life. visit the sites i posted on this post and my next; read the 'greats' under the main heading of my suggested blogs to read titled: iguana friendly, and then decide for yourself :)
many folk do not consider that even after years, when their igs continue never to 'get' along with them, and continue to maintain fairly 'hostile' relationships with their keepers (hissing and biting when touched - and an adult ig can take your finger clean off), it would still be worse off when they eventually give up and give their igs away... as the igs have to double their captivity stress levels by getting used to new surroundings all over again, and to new keepers and routines.
so for example: you allow free-roaming and the next keeper cages 24/7, and igs literally go crazy as they feel so caged up as they are now used to walking about, they start hurting themselves trying to escape (bloody/bruised noses, lost claws/digits). or they grow to be even more hostile/aggressive, fighting to stay out of their cages when the new keepers try to bond/pet them.
some of the ig greats have actually documented stories in our chat forums where they have rescued 'broken hearted' igs as most owners fail to recognize how sensitive and needy emotionally, this special green lizard actually is.
also, your travel will be limited, as you rarely if ever can take your green ig with you, and they need daily care :) even kalau cuti cuti Malaysia, igs will fare poorly in air-conditoned cars and most hotels here will not take pets. you will have to set-up that they still get their UVB lite/unfiltered sunshine. and if you travel overseas, you will need to find an ig-sitter (who is NOT intimidated) to continue the daily routines so you don't come home to an extremely sick or very scared (and therefore has injured itself trying to escape) or very pissed off ig (that will poop paint your house first chance it gets).
my life rotates around IggySingh and i have no complains; i would do it all over again :) but i have daily and travel support so i can meet my meeting schedules and my travel schedules, and it took me years to train this subsitute Mom to care for Iggy the way she is used to, and for Iggy not to get scared and hurt herself or slump into 'depression' and refuse to eat for days when i was away on travels initially.
i do hear these stories of how some macho Malaysian men buy their igs and stick them in the garden in a cage 24/7 and drop heaps of kailan in their cage when they travel. can't tell you how much that offends me as a green ig lover :) but no lectures here... (other than kailan will fester fast in our humidity; the ig probably has skin diseases and mouth rot and is potentially feral; and probably won't live beyond 5 years as kailan should never be a staple food).
all the best pollyneedsacracker, and please do keep asking yourself the questions prior to making your final decision on if a green ig is right for you :)
i highly recommend you purchase Melissa Kaplan's Iguanas For Dummies book and answer the loooong list of checklist questions there prior to any decision. i did :))
you can also catch me on yahoo messenger kalau nak sembang real time okay? at
iguana_singh@yahoo.com
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